EXCLUSIVE : Entretien entre Céline Masson, co-directrice de l’OPS et une personne trans d’une association de soutien

Speakers:

[I] = Celine MASSON

[T] = Trans witness

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[I] Could you introduce yourself?

[T] I am a transfeminine person — one can call it that — who moves in the world of associations. And very quickly, I was able to observe certain drifts.

What kind of drifts are we talking about?

I have been in the associative world for five or six years. I noticed that most of the time, it was parents who called me because their daughter wanted to undergo a transition. The average age is 15 (between 12 and 18). Today we are at 80% on the female-to-male side, and often teenagers.

What is their request? How do they come to you?

As a rule, it is not them who come to me, it is the parents, completely at a loss. When your child tells you they want to transition, it is not easy. I am here to help the parents — being a parent myself, I know what I am talking about. I try to calm things down on both sides, and to help the young person understand what a transition really is. It is not what you see on the Internet. There are things you lose, you have to think carefully about it.

In general, my message gets through less well with the teenager, better with the parents. But I try to make them understand that time must be allowed. I still help them with name changes, because it gives them the feeling of initiating something — and it can prevent them from going further immediately.

And regarding surgery?

I am against surgery before the age of 18. It is said that there is none, but we know very well that there are professionals who do it anyway. Especially on girls — those who want to become boys. The main operation remains mastectomy. And teenagers, they want everything, right away.

For very young trans girls — 8, 9 years old — I tell the parents to allow time, to let them dress as they wish at home, to treat them as feminine. It is less violent. For teenage girls, on the other hand, it is much more urgent in their minds: breast removal, hormones. For boys who want to become women, there is more capacity to wait until the age of 18, even if puberty blockers are prescribed to them.

Why does this phenomenon affect girls more, in your opinion?

I think there is a hidden homosexuality — that is my personal opinion, I am not a psychiatrist. It is the feeling I get from people who, at 18 years and one day, had their breasts operated on, and who came back four months later saying: "My girlfriend left me because I no longer look feminine." I think there is a confusion between homosexuality and trans identity.

Why is it so difficult to address this subject in trans-activist circles?

Adolescence needs to self-determine, to assert itself. And in the large associations, the tendency is to want to show that we are benevolent, that we help everyone. Except that it is not benevolence to act without foreseeing the consequences. Like in chess, you have to see two, three moves ahead. I think we are going to face a backlash in five or six years.

I have a concrete example: a head of civil registry told me that out of 25 files for name reversals, 24 concerned people who had undergone a male transition and were reclaiming a female name. Which suggests that these young girls were not trans — they had an identity quest and went through it. But once outside the field of trans identity, they no longer speak, because it would risk "dismantling" the entire discourse on self-determination.

I think that those who advocate self-determination in large associations are often people like me — over forty or fifty, who have known they are trans for a long time, who have built a life, and who do not want young people to suffer as we suffered, hiding. That is commendable. But I think it is still a lesser evil than moving too fast — I prefer a young person who takes hormone blockers rather than taking a cutter. When I see young people with scarred arms, I prefer they change their name, take blockers, and at 18-20 be able to say: "I was wrong."

You know the studies showing that hormone blockers then lead to transition in 90% of cases?

I know these studies. But it is a lesser evil. What is needed above all is more psychiatrists trained in this — neither trans-affirming nor transphobic.

[Note from Céline Masson: Puberty blockers are not a simple "pause button" — approximately 98% of children who take them end up taking cross-sex hormones. Several studies demonstrate this.¹]

Can you give us a concrete example of your support?

I had a young adult woman who was immersed in the trans community because her partner was a trans woman. She started hormones after two months. The relationship ended, she stopped the hormones. She told me: "Thank you for not going further." Because I listened. We changed the name, we talked for hours. Today, when I see her, she is fulfilled. She needed to be heard. That is the problem.

Changing their name, acknowledging their distress — can remove a thorn from their side. If after two years on blockers they are still not doing better, then it is not trans identity.

So our position at the Observatoire la Petite Sirène — listening, not affirming the gender from the outset — do you share it?

Yes, but there is an important point about legitimacy. When it is a "cisgender" psychologist questioning a young person, that young person immediately thinks: "She is against me." When it is me — someone who has completed a transition — it is totally different. I am legitimate in their eyes. The problem with all associations in France is that the slightest questioning becomes "transphobic." My discourse does not please many associations, but I prefer to prevent rather than cure. Like in Denmark or Sweden, where everything was validated wholesale and now things are being reversed.

You mentioned the politicization of trans associations...

It is a central problem. These questions fall under health, psychology — and they have been turned into politics. Worse: with extreme politicians. It is LFI that has taken up this fight, and they know nothing about it. At a Pride, they arrive with Palestinian flags. I will be frank: LGBT people have no rights whatsoever in Palestine. I am entirely against the politicization of this cause. It should be apolitical.

Indeed, trans or homosexual people can even be in danger in that region, some have even taken refuge in Israel — I met them in Tel Aviv, the quintessential LGBT city. What is the link between the LGBT movement and pro-Palestinian causes?

It is the "convergence of struggles." The more you broaden the front, the more voters you have. LFI targets both immigrant communities and LGBT people — two electorates that do not go together at all. And that is why today many associations no longer attend Prides: they no longer recognise themselves in this fight. Since October 7th [mass massacre against Jews in Israel by the terrorist movement Hamas], things have radicalised further. And it harms even trans associations.

Indeed, an association like OUTrans, a partner of the Ministry of Higher Education, associated its logo on the occasion of Women's Rights Day on 8th March last year with that of Samidoun (an organisation listed as a terrorist group in several countries due to its links with jihadism and terrorism). We do not understand how LGBT associations can associate with these organisations.

What makes me laugh is when they chant "death to the cops" — and yet we want them to escort our Pride because we can be attacked. It is absurd. You cannot shout death to the cops when they are the ones who protect us at our Prides.

And the LGB associations without the T — what do you think?

I think that by wanting everything, we will end up with less. The red carpet is rolled out in the name of fighting discrimination, people think discrimination alone is enough to win. But by pushing too far, rejection is created. Inclusivity can create exclusion. "Wokism" and proselytism make us visible in the wrong way — and that generates transphobia.`

So you are in favour of invisibility?

Exactly. If we want to live our lives, there should be no more visibility days, no more stigmatisation. But to be invisible, people must first understand that we are not sexual perverts. That is why we replaced "transsexual" with "transgender" — in people's minds, "transsexual" evoked a sexual problem. Which has nothing to do with it.

Trans identity has nothing to do with sexuality. Since I started my transition, my libido has never been so low — I won't say "minus ten" — but there you go. And in people's minds, being trans is often associated with homosexuality, whereas there are as many heterosexuals as homosexuals among trans people. These are two completely distinct things.

How can we return to more moderation in all of this? Because you embody precisely that moderation.

I think we went in a few years from "everything forbidden" to "everything allowed." That is harmful, it will be harmful for many young people.

The problem is that when you have a firm discourse, the trans associations facing you also have a firm discourse. And today, it is the one who feels oppressed who is "right" — in all areas, not just trans identity. So you will be wrong. Then, in 2027, there may be a change of government that swings the other way, as in the United States. You cannot play with extremes all the time.

I am moderate. We must have a moderate discourse. I always put myself in the other person's shoes. My ex-wife, for example: when I visit her, I come in jeans, without makeup, because she asked me not to arrive made-up in a skirt. I respect that. That does not make me less of a woman. Makeup does not define a woman. And if it allows my ex-wife not to feel aggressed, that suits me.

What makes me laugh is being called a "transphobe" because I have a discourse that is not activist. I do not define myself as a trans-activist or a militant — I don't like that word — I define myself as a "helper." I participated in drafting the Blanquer circular, I am part of one of the associations that participated in drafting the Blanquer circular. I wanted awareness-raising but not before the end of middle school or high school — not before. I am more comfortable at high school than at middle school, because at that age they have crossed a threshold — first romantic feelings, first physical changes.

When a 12-13 year old comes, completely desperate — what do you do?

I intervene in 8th and 9th grade classes, not to say "everyone is trans," but to make them understand that it could be their neighbour, their cousin. Simply to avoid harassment and suicides related to discrimination.

But there is a problem with child psychiatry. These young people need to see a psychologist first of all. By affirming self-determination, the step of psychological follow-up is skipped. When young people come to see me, I tell them: "I know we have been psychiatrised, but a minimum of psychological support remains necessary. And I have the legitimacy that you don't — I tell them: even if this is what you want, your life is going to change, people will no longer look at you the same way — you need to be equipped for that."

How do you see the problem of rejection?

Rejection is not necessarily transphobia — it is sometimes simply the gaze being caught by something different. Like my ex-wife who asks me to come without makeup and without a skirt. It is not that she rejects me, it is that she needs space.

By over-investing in identity, rejection is created. When you are constantly immersed in a trans microcosm, you take everything — the positive and the negative.

How do we work together, trans associations and OPS, for the well-being of young people?

I think we need to work together with psychologists and doctors. As a trans person who is directly concerned, we can explain to professionals how we experience things. And I know — in my region, prosecutors, town halls know that I am rigorous in the paperwork requirements. I know what we are entitled to request. And I am there for support during court appearances, because it is very distressing.

I sincerely think that the change of first name and sex should be done at the town hall — today we only have the first name at the town hall, sex remains at the court. Courts are overwhelmed. A court change for a minor takes two years of waiting — and by the time the judgment comes, they are an adult. At the town hall, if you were wrong, you can go back. The essential thing is that the parents agree.

Don't you think that social transition creates dysphoria? When you change your name at 14, there is also a risk of aligning one's "gender identity" with one's sex?

The risk is there. But generally, young people know about trans identity better than one might think. Today, a young person who takes a masculine name in their schoolyard, their classmates might simply say "OK, we'll leave them alone." They will manage well and be able to find their way. If everything is forbidden, it pushes them to want everything. If you ease up a little, sometimes that is enough.

I am less convinced than you — I think we must first explore what is going on in the minds of these young people...

I agree with you. 80% of my calls concern girls. In my day, trans identity was essentially about boys. There are clearly questions being raised among girls today. And I think proportions must be maintained: 50-50 or 60-40 would make sense, but here, it is almost 80% of girls in my calls.

What question would you like to ask me to finish? How could we work in good alignment for the benefit of everyone, to avoid fighting each other and to act in the interest of the other?

That is a good question. Today we have both demonstrated that we can do it. Our roles are very different — you are more in the support side, we are more in the psychological follow-up. Besides, the word "trans identity" poses a problem for us because it does not necessarily resolve the problem of certain young people who are not trans. That is why we speak of "trans-identification" — more flexible. And we have also proposed "ASP" — Pubescent Sexuation Anxiety — because we think these girls have a problem with their body, with their puberty, a rejection of their femininity in adolescence, which is not trans identity.

These are still words. At some point, we must stop with words and act. Non-binary identity — that is the solution — it would allow these young people not to feel obliged to go towards major transitions to "do better than the other."

That is precisely where we might find common ground — non-binary identity as an intermediate space that allows time.

Exactly. And psychiatrists know very well what you are saying — they agree with you on substance — but they cannot allow themselves to say it publicly, otherwise they come across as transphobic. It is the same problem for us: saying "La Petite Sirène may be right" is enough to get you labelled as transphobic.

We also suffer defamation, even slander. We have defamation lawsuits. And as a researcher, I also fight against false information — it harms all causes, including yours. Because hatred of the other exists, the fear of difference.

Absolutely. That is why it has always been my cause too. Phobia is the fear of difference. And that is where, at heart, we find common ground.

I am aware of the stakes. Because I have views that go outside the usual framework. But it is important to make things understood — first to help parents, to help young people, to help everyone, and also those who adhere a little too quickly, so that they understand the issue.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

Notes

¹ Carmichael, P., Butler, G., Masic, U., Cole, TJ, De Stavola, BL, Davidson, S., Skageberg, EM, Khadr, S., and Viner, RM (2021). Short-term outcomes of pubertal suppression in a selected cohort of 12 to 15 year old young people with persistent gender dysphoria in the UK. PLOS ONE 16(2). Wiepjes, CM, Nota, NM, de Blok, CJM, Klaver, M., de Vries, ALC, Wensing-Kruger, SA, de Jongh, RT, Bouman, MB, Steensma, TD, Cohen-Kettenis, P., Gooren, LJG, Kreukels, BPC and den Heijer, M. (2018). The Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria Study (1972–2015): Trends in Prevalence, Treatment, and Regrets. Journal of Sexual Medicine 15(4). de Vries, ALC, Steensma, TD, Doreleijers, TA and Cohen-Kettenis, PT (2011). Puberty Suppression in Adolescents with Gender Identity Disorder: A Prospective Follow-Up Study. J Sex Med 8(8): 2276–83. Baxendale, S. (2024). The impact of puberty suppression on neuropsychological functioning: A literature review. Acta Paediatrica, 113(7), 1156–1167.